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	<title>Comments on: The Granddaddy of all leads &#8211; Lead 2.0</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20</link>
	<description>The Home for Lead Industry News &#38; Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Lead Guru</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-681</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Guru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-681</guid>
		<description>Guru will be in Tampa!  We&#039;ll have a drink together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guru will be in Tampa!  We&#8217;ll have a drink together.</p>
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		<title>By: webstertm</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-665</link>
		<dc:creator>webstertm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-665</guid>
		<description>Guru,

I agree with you on the fact that that lead is sorely needed among those that already have the skills in place.  My own brother is a living example of what you are talking about.  He asked me the very same question &quot;why call 100 people to close 4 or 5 deals?  How do I just talk to those 4 or 5 people?&quot;  If I could answer that question I wouldn&#039;t tell you or him and I&#039;d close them myself, but I&#039;m a greedy bastard.  The problem the lead industry and mortgage brokers alike face is that most companies that buy leads try to buy ONE type of lead for all of their LO&#039;s.  That is death if you ask me.  I have devised, for closed and funded consulting, a questionaire to help assertain what type of loan officer you are.  This helps match the loan officer with the correct product, regardless of it&#039;s price.  Many of us top producers and entrepenuers tend to think anyone that applies themselves can do what we do.  Or, as I have heard so often &quot;if I can close 6 deals per month and I hire 4 people just like me and I pay them 50% then I can make 3 times the money I make now&quot;  I call this the Calculator Effect (it works much like the chaos theory).  It states that anything that can be added up on a calculator can not exist in real business where people are the determining factor.  So, they buy these leads (as cheap as they can get them) then hand out with blinders on and pray that their LO&#039;s are all the same working the same type of lead.  I&#039;ll post a really great blog on this on this website and mine by the end of the week and you can tear me apart for it (God, I hope you&#039;ll be in Tampa for Leads2007.  I want that kiss, but a drink will do HAHAHA).  Your closing remark is true.  We ALL have to get better at what we do.  The first step is understanding not just what we do, but how we do it and who is doing it with us.  That is a quantum step in relationship based selling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guru,</p>
<p>I agree with you on the fact that that lead is sorely needed among those that already have the skills in place.  My own brother is a living example of what you are talking about.  He asked me the very same question &#8220;why call 100 people to close 4 or 5 deals?  How do I just talk to those 4 or 5 people?&#8221;  If I could answer that question I wouldn&#8217;t tell you or him and I&#8217;d close them myself, but I&#8217;m a greedy bastard.  The problem the lead industry and mortgage brokers alike face is that most companies that buy leads try to buy ONE type of lead for all of their LO&#8217;s.  That is death if you ask me.  I have devised, for closed and funded consulting, a questionaire to help assertain what type of loan officer you are.  This helps match the loan officer with the correct product, regardless of it&#8217;s price.  Many of us top producers and entrepenuers tend to think anyone that applies themselves can do what we do.  Or, as I have heard so often &#8220;if I can close 6 deals per month and I hire 4 people just like me and I pay them 50% then I can make 3 times the money I make now&#8221;  I call this the Calculator Effect (it works much like the chaos theory).  It states that anything that can be added up on a calculator can not exist in real business where people are the determining factor.  So, they buy these leads (as cheap as they can get them) then hand out with blinders on and pray that their LO&#8217;s are all the same working the same type of lead.  I&#8217;ll post a really great blog on this on this website and mine by the end of the week and you can tear me apart for it (God, I hope you&#8217;ll be in Tampa for Leads2007.  I want that kiss, but a drink will do HAHAHA).  Your closing remark is true.  We ALL have to get better at what we do.  The first step is understanding not just what we do, but how we do it and who is doing it with us.  That is a quantum step in relationship based selling.</p>
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		<title>By: Lead Guru</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-659</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Guru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-659</guid>
		<description>LOL, sounds good.  Kiss Kiss.  

I still don&#039;t agree though that many won&#039;t pay the higher costs mentioned, approx $150-$200.  I speak with the providers and my peers about this and when you factor in true costs of any internet lead, (even yours) plus salaries of existing LO&#039;s or CSR&#039;s dialing leads, overhead and employee time the true cost of one positive lead or transfer that turns into a credit app (declined or not) is over $100.  So bottom line, we&#039;re already paying over $100 for a &quot;Real&quot; lead.  I&#039;m not speaking about buying 100 leads and 4-6 turn into loans.  I talking about why waste employee equity on running thru 100 leads to get 4-6 loans when they can work thru 50 and get that same conversion, higher price but more effective management of staff time, etc.  Borrowers talking to less companies because they were better matched and better screened to direct them to the RIGHT company the first time around.  Not 4-5 companies stating they cannot be helped, try hard money.  Why not route that borrower to hard money the first time?  This is only one small example of how everyone&#039;s experience would be better and down the road this borrower whether we helped them or not would be more apt to do the same process again.  That would be the true enhancing the experience I was speaking of.

Any good provider with a solid product today could open this up for existing clients, &quot;If your happy with the standard product what about one that goes thru this hyper level of screening&quot;.  

Hell about half a dozen of the providers have approached me to discuss the nature of this product suggestion and post.  It&#039;s not like it&#039;s a secret sauce but many providers now are looking into this.  Web, watch in the next few months how some of these changes will come and or be tried by providers.  We all have to get better at what we do to survive this nasty ass market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, sounds good.  Kiss Kiss.  </p>
<p>I still don&#8217;t agree though that many won&#8217;t pay the higher costs mentioned, approx $150-$200.  I speak with the providers and my peers about this and when you factor in true costs of any internet lead, (even yours) plus salaries of existing LO&#8217;s or CSR&#8217;s dialing leads, overhead and employee time the true cost of one positive lead or transfer that turns into a credit app (declined or not) is over $100.  So bottom line, we&#8217;re already paying over $100 for a &#8220;Real&#8221; lead.  I&#8217;m not speaking about buying 100 leads and 4-6 turn into loans.  I talking about why waste employee equity on running thru 100 leads to get 4-6 loans when they can work thru 50 and get that same conversion, higher price but more effective management of staff time, etc.  Borrowers talking to less companies because they were better matched and better screened to direct them to the RIGHT company the first time around.  Not 4-5 companies stating they cannot be helped, try hard money.  Why not route that borrower to hard money the first time?  This is only one small example of how everyone&#8217;s experience would be better and down the road this borrower whether we helped them or not would be more apt to do the same process again.  That would be the true enhancing the experience I was speaking of.</p>
<p>Any good provider with a solid product today could open this up for existing clients, &#8220;If your happy with the standard product what about one that goes thru this hyper level of screening&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Hell about half a dozen of the providers have approached me to discuss the nature of this product suggestion and post.  It&#8217;s not like it&#8217;s a secret sauce but many providers now are looking into this.  Web, watch in the next few months how some of these changes will come and or be tried by providers.  We all have to get better at what we do to survive this nasty ass market.</p>
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		<title>By: webstertm</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-657</link>
		<dc:creator>webstertm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-657</guid>
		<description>I do not see how this opener &quot;Whereas I agree that this idea sounds wonderful, I think we have to understand that once again we are talking about fictional products that as the end user we believe would increase our performance&quot; was taken as negative.  I think my replis sound negative because I don&#039;t simply jump on the &quot;yeah just fixing the leads will improve performance&quot; bandwagon.  I continue to point out that I firmly agree that there are several areas where lead quality can be improved.  I just firmly believe that simply focusing on fixing the leads and forsaking all other cogs in the machine becomes a very microcosmic approach to the bigger issues at hand. Guru, If I came across as negative I can only apologize, but I stand by my statements.  I do take these statements personally &quot;I’ve never seen the sales approach though of anyone in the industry bash the client base.&quot; and &quot;I appreciate the guys like Matt Tillman of Adchemy and Yung Trang (Even though he’s on a two month vacation) for having the better sense then shit talking their buyers and the competition and selling what they believe their strengths are.&quot;  I did not realize that those comments were not directed personally at my comments that your post brought up.  I always try to post with a tongue in cheek attitude.  I have commended this site so many times for being very positive about finding answers.  To find real answers though Guru you must over turn every rock and deal with all of the ugly things under them.  I like to use analogies as I am sure you know by now so here is one to consider, if I made the best high performance automobile in the industry today with a kia cost and made it available to the masses the bad drivers of the world would proclaim how crappy my product was because they didn&#039;t understand how to work it.  So, you must manufacture a product that meets not only the needs, but the abilities of those consuming it.  Leads 2.0 is the Bently idea of leads.  It sounds great and I love them, but they do not work for masses.  Let us not forget that 95% of the industry is controlled by 5% of those in it.  Should lead companies manufacture for the 5% or the other 95%.  Also, we rolled out a higher dollar product geared to more savvy brokers and they scoffed at the cost.  Even though the ratios were considerable higher.  It is easy to dream and conceive in a vaccum, but at some point a product must be road tested and then marketed.  If the market scoffs at the cost or is incapable of working it then the idea no matter how good, noble or lofty must be scrapped.  Go to Vegas and count the high roller tables compared to the $5 tables and then you will see the 80/20 rule in full effect.  Lead sales is a business and it must be profitable for all concerned.  That is my direct response (again) to your post.  If that sounds bashing or negative I apologize to everyone, but I am sure that we all realize I am only speaking the truth.  For better or worse.  Now you wanna kiss and make up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not see how this opener &#8220;Whereas I agree that this idea sounds wonderful, I think we have to understand that once again we are talking about fictional products that as the end user we believe would increase our performance&#8221; was taken as negative.  I think my replis sound negative because I don&#8217;t simply jump on the &#8220;yeah just fixing the leads will improve performance&#8221; bandwagon.  I continue to point out that I firmly agree that there are several areas where lead quality can be improved.  I just firmly believe that simply focusing on fixing the leads and forsaking all other cogs in the machine becomes a very microcosmic approach to the bigger issues at hand. Guru, If I came across as negative I can only apologize, but I stand by my statements.  I do take these statements personally &#8220;I’ve never seen the sales approach though of anyone in the industry bash the client base.&#8221; and &#8220;I appreciate the guys like Matt Tillman of Adchemy and Yung Trang (Even though he’s on a two month vacation) for having the better sense then shit talking their buyers and the competition and selling what they believe their strengths are.&#8221;  I did not realize that those comments were not directed personally at my comments that your post brought up.  I always try to post with a tongue in cheek attitude.  I have commended this site so many times for being very positive about finding answers.  To find real answers though Guru you must over turn every rock and deal with all of the ugly things under them.  I like to use analogies as I am sure you know by now so here is one to consider, if I made the best high performance automobile in the industry today with a kia cost and made it available to the masses the bad drivers of the world would proclaim how crappy my product was because they didn&#8217;t understand how to work it.  So, you must manufacture a product that meets not only the needs, but the abilities of those consuming it.  Leads 2.0 is the Bently idea of leads.  It sounds great and I love them, but they do not work for masses.  Let us not forget that 95% of the industry is controlled by 5% of those in it.  Should lead companies manufacture for the 5% or the other 95%.  Also, we rolled out a higher dollar product geared to more savvy brokers and they scoffed at the cost.  Even though the ratios were considerable higher.  It is easy to dream and conceive in a vaccum, but at some point a product must be road tested and then marketed.  If the market scoffs at the cost or is incapable of working it then the idea no matter how good, noble or lofty must be scrapped.  Go to Vegas and count the high roller tables compared to the $5 tables and then you will see the 80/20 rule in full effect.  Lead sales is a business and it must be profitable for all concerned.  That is my direct response (again) to your post.  If that sounds bashing or negative I apologize to everyone, but I am sure that we all realize I am only speaking the truth.  For better or worse.  Now you wanna kiss and make up?</p>
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		<title>By: Lead Critic</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-656</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Critic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-656</guid>
		<description>Oh one other thing. This is of course the LEADCritic site so we do focus on leads and that&#039;s not to discount the process or sales aspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh one other thing. This is of course the LEADCritic site so we do focus on leads and that&#8217;s not to discount the process or sales aspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Lead Guru</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-654</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Guru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-654</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah, perhaps I should be cited for BUI, blogging while under the influence.  LOL  :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, perhaps I should be cited for BUI, blogging while under the influence.  LOL  <img src='http://blog.leadcritic.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lead Guru</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-653</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Guru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-653</guid>
		<description>LOL,  Love this stuff.  I only express what comes across from reading your posts Web, how many times in your responses have we seen the same thing?  Check them out for yourself. Either way NO offense.  I don&#039;t understand how pointing out it&#039;s time to change the lead model is boiled down to, hey what&#039;s your problems brokers!  Get your shit together and stop blaming everyone else.  I didn&#039;t see that anywhere in the original posts.  I&#039;ve seen several times the negative tone you&#039;ve taken about brokers as being the problem and I called you on it.  Everyone in this industry realizes it&#039;s everyone&#039;s problem but my post didn&#039;t address everyone&#039;s problems otherwise it would have been a 5 page dossier and not the semi-lengthy original post I did on lead improvement.  I think you&#039;ve taken the human step and become offended, perhaps because you hear that too often in your day to day relationships with the brokers you talk to, etc.  That&#039;s understandable.  but lets stick to the original topic, leads can be improved and the next logical steps would be what I believe I posted.  As always I caviot that with &quot;This is my opinion&quot;.  We can do a post on Sales teams improving, or at least another one and then banter that stuff around no problem guys.  Eithe way Guru is here to hear the feedback and I am grateful for the responses I got on this posting.  It&#039;s felt like night of the living dead with the lack of responses lately and I think it&#039;s time more of US talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL,  Love this stuff.  I only express what comes across from reading your posts Web, how many times in your responses have we seen the same thing?  Check them out for yourself. Either way NO offense.  I don&#8217;t understand how pointing out it&#8217;s time to change the lead model is boiled down to, hey what&#8217;s your problems brokers!  Get your shit together and stop blaming everyone else.  I didn&#8217;t see that anywhere in the original posts.  I&#8217;ve seen several times the negative tone you&#8217;ve taken about brokers as being the problem and I called you on it.  Everyone in this industry realizes it&#8217;s everyone&#8217;s problem but my post didn&#8217;t address everyone&#8217;s problems otherwise it would have been a 5 page dossier and not the semi-lengthy original post I did on lead improvement.  I think you&#8217;ve taken the human step and become offended, perhaps because you hear that too often in your day to day relationships with the brokers you talk to, etc.  That&#8217;s understandable.  but lets stick to the original topic, leads can be improved and the next logical steps would be what I believe I posted.  As always I caviot that with &#8220;This is my opinion&#8221;.  We can do a post on Sales teams improving, or at least another one and then banter that stuff around no problem guys.  Eithe way Guru is here to hear the feedback and I am grateful for the responses I got on this posting.  It&#8217;s felt like night of the living dead with the lack of responses lately and I think it&#8217;s time more of US talk.</p>
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		<title>By: webstertm</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-651</link>
		<dc:creator>webstertm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-651</guid>
		<description>Thank you Lead Critic.  I also agree that the better sales person is far more effective with a high quality lead.  That is why savvy brokers give their best leads to their top producers and most skilled sales people.  It is not a reward, it is good business.  The lead industry needs help as does the mortgage industry.  This site is about us all working together to iron it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Lead Critic.  I also agree that the better sales person is far more effective with a high quality lead.  That is why savvy brokers give their best leads to their top producers and most skilled sales people.  It is not a reward, it is good business.  The lead industry needs help as does the mortgage industry.  This site is about us all working together to iron it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Lead Critic</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-650</link>
		<dc:creator>Lead Critic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-650</guid>
		<description>I must say I get more banter on this blog than your average soap opera. There are many pieces to the puzzle and all must be fine tuned. However I have always stood by the statement that good salesman can call out of the phonebook and create a deal. Of course this is slightly unrealistic but the it is true that a well tuned sales team and process will succeed with any lead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say I get more banter on this blog than your average soap opera. There are many pieces to the puzzle and all must be fine tuned. However I have always stood by the statement that good salesman can call out of the phonebook and create a deal. Of course this is slightly unrealistic but the it is true that a well tuned sales team and process will succeed with any lead.</p>
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		<title>By: webstertm</title>
		<link>http://blog.leadcritic.com/lead-management/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20/comment-page-1#comment-649</link>
		<dc:creator>webstertm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.leadcritic.com/leads2007/the-granddaddy-of-all-leads-lead-20#comment-649</guid>
		<description>Alright, Now you have to go in a negative direction.  I never said anything negative about my clients.  As a matter of fact I have been with my company for almost 3 years.  I have clients that have been with me since day one.  I have had a few scam artists try to screw us out of money.  I see the same people being successful with a product over and over again that others bad mouth.  Why?  Because they understand the industry, understand sales, relationship building and focus on return on investment not returns.  If what I say hurts anyones feelings I am sorry, but that doesn&#039;t make it any less true.  Thee are so many moving components to mortgage success that you can not simply boil it down to blaming a lead provider.  Quite frankly, if your lead providers in the past have screwed you over that says alot about your objectivity to hearing that there is something you may be missing.  Or maybe you just chose poorly as to what company to put your trust in.  Or maybe, their product was just not suited to you or vise versa.  I hear alot of people blaming the leads and few taking any responsibility.  it is a generation of &quot;my life is screwed up because of my parents&quot; instead of &quot;I have the power to make the best of any situation&quot;.  I am not shit talking my clients leadguru.  I am pointing out a failing in the industry.  I listen to everyone take shit about the lead industry and i do not condem them for thier points of view, but I believe education and perspective are vastly more important than negative attitudes and bashing someone because they make a statement you don&#039;t like or agree with.  But, you know what maybe I&#039;m wrong.  Maybe you&#039;re right.  My bringing up focusing on Relationship Based sales, focusing on building a more diverse client base, focusing on return on investment and focusing on building a referral business out of purchased leads is just a crappy thing to mention.  I stand corrected.  You are right.  Everyone is doing everything right except the lead providers and education is not needed.  I also believe the demise of the mortgage industry is directly related to mortgage leads not lying mortgage brokers that promise rates that don&#039;t exist, put FHA clients in Sub-Prime deals simply becuase they are to lazy or cheap to set-up their FHA license or jack up appraisals for their own gain.  I suppose they had nothing to do with the storm the industry is in right now and a fresh voice that simply said look at your business model and sales approach is the evil entity that ruined the party.  So I thank you Guru for the education, but the condesending tone or the bashing that was totally uncalled for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alright, Now you have to go in a negative direction.  I never said anything negative about my clients.  As a matter of fact I have been with my company for almost 3 years.  I have clients that have been with me since day one.  I have had a few scam artists try to screw us out of money.  I see the same people being successful with a product over and over again that others bad mouth.  Why?  Because they understand the industry, understand sales, relationship building and focus on return on investment not returns.  If what I say hurts anyones feelings I am sorry, but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less true.  Thee are so many moving components to mortgage success that you can not simply boil it down to blaming a lead provider.  Quite frankly, if your lead providers in the past have screwed you over that says alot about your objectivity to hearing that there is something you may be missing.  Or maybe you just chose poorly as to what company to put your trust in.  Or maybe, their product was just not suited to you or vise versa.  I hear alot of people blaming the leads and few taking any responsibility.  it is a generation of &#8220;my life is screwed up because of my parents&#8221; instead of &#8220;I have the power to make the best of any situation&#8221;.  I am not shit talking my clients leadguru.  I am pointing out a failing in the industry.  I listen to everyone take shit about the lead industry and i do not condem them for thier points of view, but I believe education and perspective are vastly more important than negative attitudes and bashing someone because they make a statement you don&#8217;t like or agree with.  But, you know what maybe I&#8217;m wrong.  Maybe you&#8217;re right.  My bringing up focusing on Relationship Based sales, focusing on building a more diverse client base, focusing on return on investment and focusing on building a referral business out of purchased leads is just a crappy thing to mention.  I stand corrected.  You are right.  Everyone is doing everything right except the lead providers and education is not needed.  I also believe the demise of the mortgage industry is directly related to mortgage leads not lying mortgage brokers that promise rates that don&#8217;t exist, put FHA clients in Sub-Prime deals simply becuase they are to lazy or cheap to set-up their FHA license or jack up appraisals for their own gain.  I suppose they had nothing to do with the storm the industry is in right now and a fresh voice that simply said look at your business model and sales approach is the evil entity that ruined the party.  So I thank you Guru for the education, but the condesending tone or the bashing that was totally uncalled for.</p>
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