LEADCRITICLMB Leads
Filed Under: Lead Providers, LEAD Management, General Stuff
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I have been receiving a number of questions about LMB leads and want to touch base on them now.
Jim Says:
May 1st, 2007 at May 1, 2007 eI heard LMB offers three different lead programs. Is that true and what are the differences?
Yes, LMB has 3 different lead programs: Classic, Advantage and Premier.
Classic leads are produced through banner and text ads (CPM). They will soon be call verified as well. Because of this LMB will not be excepting returns on any of their leads starting in June.
Advantage leads are produced through CPM and SEM (Search Engine Marketing) and are credit banned leads. This means that they run credit (Soft Pull) on the name and phone number of the lead. This action allows LMB to guarantee the credit rating of the borrower. They will not give you the actual credit score but they will guarantee that the lead has good, fair, poor or excellent credit. This lead may make sense for someone only buying a specific credit filter. They also claim that the soft pull does not become a trigger lead. The verdict is still out on that.
Premier leads are leads that include a SS#. They do not pull credit on the lead, but do allow you to pull credit on the lead once you have received it. This is a double edge sword though; these leads may have up to 5 people pulling the borrowers credit at one time which will allow the lead to become trigger data. I am not a firm believer of these types of leads. The conversions on these types of leads are not much higher, if at all, and don’t justify the price increase in my opinion.
With the introduction of the Advantage leads and the call verified Classic leads its clear to see that LMB is trying to improve their products. The problem is that they still sell their leads to 5 people (maybe more). This makes their leads extremely competitive. Many of the Hot Transfer companies buy their leads as well and call the leads within 3 minutes of receiving the leads. You also have companies that practice giving one lead to multiple LO’s in an office. With this happening you are going to come across leads that say they have been called by 10 different companies within the first few hours. Being a company that produces a large volume of leads they are also going to have a higher risk of fraud and stealing. All in all, you need to be on top of your game to succeed with these leads.
If you are just getting into the lead purchasing game I would choose a different company to start off with.
LMB has gone through many changes in the last 6-9 months. They lost their VP of Sales, Don Lavoie, they were acquired by Experian, and now, I believe, Matt Coffin’s (Founder and CEO) contract is coming up at the end of the month. I’m not sure if he will be staying around or not, we will have to wait and see.
The fourth quarter of last year they reported a loss of 8% and were flat the quarter before and more than likely LMB will report a loss for the first quarter of 2007 as well. Things don’t seem to be looking very bright for LMB, but they are large company and will more than likely get through these rough times.
Overall, LMB is a good choice if you need volume and tight filters. Like I mentioned previously, your sales team needs to be on their best game to succeed with the leads.
Good luck and I hope this helps.
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josh | May 1, 2007 | Reply
no luck with LMB—-quinstreet very good now—-nextag was really good but has changed their lead pricing to a bidding scenario–not sure now
Noel Collins | May 1, 2007 | Reply
I agree Josh. Nextag’s bidding price platform dropped the quality in less then a week. QuinnSt is going well, LMB lead quality dropped over the last 4 quarters just like The Loan Page when it was aquired. Nothing good comes from good companies being purchased by conglomerates.
josh | May 2, 2007 | Reply
we see it the same way–once quin street developes a QC function before sending out the lead they will be even better..i was dismayed on nextag’s change—must be they had so many large clients that went away with the sub pirme market tanked—do you see on overflow of affiliates with root exchange and lead point—seems they ‘board’ most of the affiliate driven lead generators–we are only after the organic guys
Morinsight | May 2, 2007 | Reply
Nextag is moving heavily into the Education space and is not devoting a whole lot of time to the mortgage space anymore. What I mean is that they aren’t making many improvements or growth initiatives.
Many of LeadPoint and Root providers are considered affliates, however many perform SEO and SEM lead-gen tactics. Good example is Adchemy, which still sends leads through Root and used to send leads through LeadPoint. Adchemy was stricly organic.
josh | May 2, 2007 | Reply
we use adchemy as well–was given the impression they don’t load much on root anymore—noticed root boards 2nd teir lead generators that drive leads through affiliates–SEO and SEM? forgive me don’t know what that is–maybe a QC of the affiliates lead?—-quinstreet is strong in edcuation but still seems to have an appetitite for mortgage–are contact rates are above 60% on their leads and conversions are hovering around 3-4%—nextage used to be in that raange but seems “by choice’ they have re aligned away from mortgage–just thinking outloud
Morinsight | May 2, 2007 | Reply
SEO-Search Engine Optimization, goal is to be listed high in non-payed search results.
SEM- Banner ads, text ads, etc
Adchemy- yes you were told right. They are driving most of their leads through the retail market now. Smart guys over there.
But I wouldn’t discount leadpoint though, they have other Adchemy type providers on their platform too.
Root as some catching up to do.
Quin continues to be strong for us as well.
Nextag-Your right, they are focusing heavily on education.
josh | May 2, 2007 | Reply
adchemy will be good if i am patient–who will replace nextag’s appetitte—they were spending a lot before the market changes—?
the people at adchemy/leadpoint and root point are fun to deal with–straight up folks
Noel Collins | May 3, 2007 | Reply
I like working with Matt Tillman as well, good guy with lots of knowledge. Josh your metrics mimic ours vis a vis Quinn St. They have not only maintained quality over the last few months but increase volume. Most smaller suppiers quality drops after they start pumping leads, Low.com is an example, used to love their stuff but now it’s so so and comparable to LMB and Adteractive.
Bill Rice | May 3, 2007 | Reply
This is merely editorial and based on no data, at this point: Doesn’t it seem odd that lead providers (sellers) are doing all of the data verification and lead grading instead of the buyers? Wouldn’t that shift the pricing power to the seller?
To your point, Morinsight, since you have captured, measured, and analyzed the data. As a result, you can make a decision that there is $X value in certain lead characteristics or elements (i.e., SSN) and may not equate to the price point. Meanwhile, hundreds of lead buyers still take leads in via email and spreadsheets and play follow the brand or the lead sales rep to the detriment of their business.
A changing market–tightening mortgage, growing education, more Internet contact business being outsourced to call centers–will drive more efficient systems and processes into the market. A stark contrast to the refi bonanza days.
I don’t think it can be stressed enough the importance of tracking, measuring, and doing the numbers in this business. Consumers are on the Web. We need to figure out how to serve them profitably in this channel.
Morinsight | May 3, 2007 | Reply
Bill,
It is shocking, but many of these buyers will not be buying in the future do to the lack tracking and analytical based decisions.
We as a group have to be smart about who we buy from and what products we aggregate. This is why this blog can be so very important to many lead buyers and mortgage brokers. It is tough to test all the different providers in the market, but if we can all have a place to come to, like Morinsight.com, and discuss our findings and be open about them, we as a group, can benefit.
I base many of my opinions off of analytical facts. These facts may help others or they may not, but the payoff is the discussion it creates and the insight it may bring in from other points of view.
This blog brings in a good amount of readers, but only a very small percentage actually comments.
I would encourage everyone to comment if they have an opinion or some insight to lead providers. Of course I discourage spam or advertisements, so please be respectful of that.
Tracking and analytics are going to be key in this market. As well as slimming your work force and the introduction of a pre-sales team.
Noel Collins | May 3, 2007 | Reply
I’ve found this blog to be relevant in content. Its refreshing to listen in on commments and editorial from other “Live users”.
Bill will not at some point the lead providers ask Icosales to discontinue. I know that many providers havew 3rd party discloure clauses in them?
Bill Rice | May 3, 2007 | Reply
Actually, we have had very positive response from the lead providers. It helps them to more objectively monitor their own marketing performance across a broader segmentation. As you know most lenders do not provide real-time “positive” feedback to the lead providers, only return or bogus-type feedback.
Unfortunately, I think this has been a big disadvantage to lead providers and lenders. Why? The result has been a disproportionate focus of lead provider innovation on picking out or call verifying nearly every lead (driving up the cost and performing sales functions) instead of improving how they market or engage consumers on the Internet to provide a better lead.
Therefore, I think this is why lead providers are seeing the advantage of seeing real-time aggregate market performance on their marketing methodologies or current media buys.
One last important thing to consider is that most reasonable sized lender (50+) are buying a mix of leads. Just like the GM of a baseball team, you may be able to win nearly every game if you paid the salary demands of all the top player, but you can’t. Similarly, your marketing budget will only allow you to buy so much of the top providers, but that quantity won’t fill your production goals. So, it is valuable to know who is the best of the second and third tiers. And their are lead providers that want to be in that space–they don’t want to try to compete with LendingTree or LMB they want to be a solid second lead provider.
josh | May 4, 2007 | Reply
quinstreet is really effective for us right now–was contacted by another organic provider–don’t know them–ReallyGreatRate.com–any thoughts out there on them—-nextag seems to be gearing up again on mortgages–have really been inactive last 3 weeks–for the record the leads360 software has really improved the discipline associated with chasing down reps and the obvious app/conversion–funding ratios–
Morinsight | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Hey Josh,
I have been buying from Really Great Rate for about 2 months now. They performance as been sub-par for us. I actually just discontinued their service recently. Not horrible, but not great. They also take in Adchemy’s overflow leads. I am not sure if they do this with other companies or not.
Noel, have you bought from Really Great Rate? What are your thoughts?
Noel Collins | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Yes I’ve done business with Silas/RGR and from what I understand he’s not doing enough SEO, too much affiliate stuff. He’s asking us to come back on line and I’m hesitant
Noel Collins | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Has anyone noticed a drastic drop off in conversion today and yesterday? We’re killing almost everything for LTV over the limit due to lates.
Morinsight | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Noel,
LTV issues have been continuous for us the last 5 months. Clearly many people still believe their house is worth what it was 2-3 years ago. Agents need to educate the borrowers on the current state of the Real Estate market and assume a $10k decrease in value. Many of the appraisers are being even more conservative with their value because of all the mortgage fraud cases going around.
Tighten up those lead filters if you can. No more 90%-100% LTV leads, especially in CA
Noel Collins | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Thanks Insight. We have reduced our LTV filters months ago, I was speaking of a two day rash of 60 - 120 day lates, ltv in the 70-85 range effectively killing deals. This has only been a two day thing so i asked.
Noel Collins | May 4, 2007 | Reply
FYI our average lead LTV upon arrival is 77%, (75-80 filter settings) I don’t buy anything higher then that.
Morinsight | May 4, 2007 | Reply
ahh..right. Sounds like a nasty string of borrowers.
Morinsight | May 4, 2007 | Reply
Good, We are in the same boat- regarding LTV’s.
josh | May 5, 2007 | Reply
when really great rate says organic–and its really affiliate driven-whats up w that–so far the organic guys for US have been QS and Nextag
Morinsight | May 5, 2007 | Reply
They do drive some Organic traffic. I don’t know specifically what %.
QS aggregates leads as well and I wouldn’t doubt Nextag does also.
Low.com, Adchemy, Bills.com are the only lead source I know of that ONLY do organic and do not aggregate leads from affiliates. I’m sure there are others. Lowlender is organic, but they will tell you if they have to aggregate leads for you and sometimes will.
Some companies only sell organic leads some sell only affiliate based leads, and there are a ton of companies in between.
Can anybody else confirm that QS aggregates leads?
Mike Miller | May 5, 2007 | Reply
Just found this site and it looks like a good place to get information on mortgage leads.
Is there any chance anyone will be putting together a comparison of lead costs of the different lead providers? For starters, what’s the difference in price for a Classic, Advantage and Premier lead at LowerMyBills and are the higher prices of one lead over the other worth it?
Morinsight | May 5, 2007 | Reply
LMB prices:
Classics- $42
Advantage- $47
Premiers- $55+
At this stage in the lead-gen market all prices are negotiable. Don’t except these prices if they offer them to you. Depending on your state coverage you may only have to pay a third of these prices.
Mike Miller | May 7, 2007 | Reply
Thanks for the info. As a follow up to the prices, how many times could LMB possibly sell the same lead? Is it different for the different programs?
Stan Mully | May 7, 2007 | Reply
Morningsight, are the LMB prices based on 1 tier states? What about the 2nd and 3rd tier states? Does anyone know how many times these leads are sold on average?
Morinsight | May 7, 2007 | Reply
THey can sell it up to 5 times. This goes for every product.
These prices are based on Tier 1 states.
Prior to the subprime fallout the leads were being sold 5 times. Now prossibly less, especially in tier 2 or less states.
josh | May 7, 2007 | Reply
thats interesting i was given the impressiono QS was entirely organic
josh | May 7, 2007 | Reply
The Lead People—telemarketing leads and semi exclusive internet leads–any thoughts on lead quality?
Morinsight | May 7, 2007 | Reply
I am not familier w/ the lead people. Anybody else have an expierence to mention?
Noel Collins | May 8, 2007 | Reply
not on The Lead People. 7 years plus and i’ve never heard of them. I can check though!
Boris | Jan 17, 2008 | Reply
Are you having volume problems at filters with such low LTVs?