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I am back after a little hiatus and many of you have been wonder where the only out spoken consumer advocate on the Internet has been. Well, I can only tell you that lead providers should beware! I have been on the prowl scouring the Internet for offensive behaviors. If you are out there foregoing the rights of the consumer please change your ways or I will find you and call you on it.
In the in the spirit of the NFL playoffs I am going to throw my first penalty flag at a specific lead generator for unnecessary roughness on the consumer. It is my opinion that there is a fine line of how many offers you can present to a consumer in one form and how many different types of leads you can generate from one consumer. A person fills out a mortgage form to receive quotes for a mortgage and that is it. Although a form may be able to present a few options for the consumer and possibly offer them credit repair solutions if applicable and of course only with their consent.
In this situation I believe there are a number of issues that deserve this penalty flag.
First, the name of the company that deserves this penalty flag is BigMortgageLeads. Lets start from the beginning, if you visit their site you will find out that they generate their leads is through a website portal called NetMoneyWizard.
If you visit this portal and begin filling out your information as if you were a consumer would you will start to realize that they are asking a number of questions to generate different leads. Consumers will get their first taste of this if they answer Yes to if they are behind on payments. When the consumer selects Yes, three more questions drop down along with a note that states BigMortgageLeads might match you with additional service providers via Homesedo.com.
After visiting Homesedo.com it looks as though they are taking the consumers data and placing it on a list for subscribers to access. At this point an unlimited amount of subscribers will have access to your information and will more than likely call you to “save you” from a foreclosure.
The next cross sale that the consumer will occur is when the borrower states that they have tax debt. Once the consumer states that they have tax debt, four additional questions will drop down. BigMortgageLeads does not state that your info may be sold to tax relief companies, but I am going to go out on a limb and assume that this is the case. If not, I am not sure what the additional questions have to do with a mortgage other then the specific amount.
The next question on the form asks if you have student loan debt. If you do, yes you guessed it, additional qualifying questions drop down. These again are probably, but not stated by BigMortgageLeads, qualifying questions for student loan debt consolidation leads.
The last portion of the form ask two more questions. First, “Are you interested in repairing your credit?” and lastly would you like to be contacted by a specialist that can help you get out of debt. At least the last question asks for your permission, they end in on a good note.
At this point, the form has been completed and you possibly just signed up for mortgage quotes, your information to be placed on a foreclosure list, tax relief consultation, student loan consolidation information and finally a credit repair solution. Most would agree that this consumer has the chance to receive, pardon my French, a SHIT LOAD of spam and phone calls from a host of different telemarketers from a form like this. Do they know what to expect?? Probably not. Well it isn’t over yet.
Now that the consumer has completed the form they are now prompted to click the “Submit” button. Oh, I didn’t mention that below the submit button they have a box that is pre-populated with a check to receive more information on “special offers”.
After hitting the Submit button you are taken to a “Thank You” page that has a pop-up window that presents, yes I counted, 33 co-registration offers. The consumer can easily click all 33 offers or click on the “return to NetMoneyWizard” button.
If you click on the “return to NetMoneyWizard” button you are presented 8 more offers and the best part about these offers is that they are for other lead generators. Wow, the consumer is thinking “I can fill out a few more forms with LMB, Bills.com, low.com and other to receive more quotes, this is awesome!!”.
It is very possible that this consumer, if they filled out even one of these extra forms could not receive up to 10 mortgage calls, 10+ foreclosure calls (depends on how many users they have on the foreclosure site), tax relief calls, student debt consolidation calls and credit repair calls. I wonder how good this lead would be to receive??? I also wonder how good the leads are that the companies on this final page are generating? If they are coming from this page, probably not very good at all.
This is complete misuse of the consumers willingness to fill out a form on the Internet and is shocking and shameful in my opinion. If this can be justified and you think that I am completely off base, please correct me.
Until next time,
Silence DoGood
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29 Comments
Good work, excellent article. I think Tim has a lot of explaining. I wonder how many of our vendor friends will respond to this or make positive changes. Knag u there?
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I think someone got a little excited on this one. This is all a little overboard in my opinion too.
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Wow! I got dizzy just looking at the screenshots. Talk about a blender.
I know Silence is focusing on the consumer here, but let me raise one other potential concern to lead buyers: How do you think a lead produced from this process would perform in your sales queue?
Lead providers this is why it is SO important to protect your brands and try to police your affiliate programs diligently.
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[...] post by LEADCRITIC | Mortgage Leads News and Opinions Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]
Bill asks a good question here: “How do you think a lead produced from this process would perform in your sales queue?”
Ultimately the goal of every lead buyer is to convert, right? So then if a lead is converting well, the ancillary questions that a lead provider asks will be of little concern. Understanding that Silence is coming from a consumer standpoint here, sure it could be incredibly annoying to all of the sudden get 1,000 calls. However, if BML’s consumers were experiencing this problem thus resulting in a degradation of quality, BML’s clients would be attriting left and right. I am not sure that this is the case completely, so I would assume the reality of the situation maybe isn’t as drastic as it may look. I may be wrong.
At the end of the day lead providers have a right to maximize their lead monetization, right? At least BML is being up front about it in their lead form. As an LMS provider I try to walk down the middle of the road on these issues, of course, but we all know that there are lead providers out there who very unscrupulously monetize leads in a million different ways completely unbeknownst to their clients. I can’t slam BML for being up front about it.
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Morellj,
your point is a little off, if you ask me. I know people who can convert trigger leads really well, but has a ex-lead buyer I would never buy trigger leads. The goal as a lead buyer is to buy leads that give you the best opportunity to convert. If some is converting leads that are being sold x amount of times then they would more than likely convert leads at a higher rate if they were sold less than x amount of time. The leads that are being generated from this form could convert better without all the multiple opportunities to be burned out with phone calls and spam, even it is only 1/8% better.
I was just IM’ing a friend about the Silence article and we were discussing the same topic. BML is only asking permission for the Foreclosure site, from what the screen shots show. I dont think they are telling the person that the lead could also be sold to other companies not having anything to do with mortgage.
I am shocked by the amount of other lead providers are advertising on the thank you page. Geez, I could right a whole post on this article.
Good Job Silence
Is it true that BML uses Leads360 for their CRM? Maybe this is slanting your opinion a bit too?
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One other comment,
Is this what happens when lead prices go down this low? Lead Providers focus heavily on ways to monetize their sites to make up for lost revenue?
Should buyers concerned when lead prices are below the average price?
I have no idea if BML has low prices or not, just asking a few questions.
Any thoughts??
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Morelli, I have to respectfully disagree here.
Let me start by saying I like the BML guys. Tim and Jonas are straight-up guys! So, this is unfortunate that they are the example here. I am guessing there are a lot of other providers that are glad that Silence didn’t find them. I will also say that this is probably (hopefully) not a reflection of their normal practices.
Now for my opinion. I may be really off base here because I am not a lead generator, but this is how I analyze this:
1. If I am the consumer, I have some responsibility in the blender that I just threw myself in. However, I think it is very irresponsible to do that to a consumer.
2. If I am a BML lead buyer I am a little concerned that this specific practice makes this lead no better than a credit trigger lead. So, I hope my price is appropriately adjusted.
3. If I am Bills.com, LoanWeb, Low.com, LowerMyBills, ReallyGreatRate, etc. I am FURIOUS that I got whacked like this and didn’t even know it (if they did they get what they deserve).
When I say whacked I am talking about the age old lender/lead generator dialogue:
Buyer: You said you only sell these things up to 4 times.
Seller: I do.
Buyer: I called this lead and they said they have been called 12 times.
Seller: That’s not possible. We don’t do that.
Buyer: I am dumping you guys! Your leads are oversold and suck!
At the end of that conversation I am an account executive that just lost a client and don’t know why???
Am I missing something? I don’t think so, because I have been on the buy side of that dialogue. And I know what my current clients expect from a lead partner I recommend.
I guess my caution to lead providers is: protect your lead quality, protect your brands!
Any lead provider want to weigh in here?
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I would love to see a response from the lead providers advertising in the BML form. I know BML from my days of buying leads, like them personally but do not advocate the practices evident in DoGoods digging.
Whats with the insuinuation about Leads360 in this conversaton?
BML using our system is flat ouright false information.
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Noel,
Nothing to do with 360 as a product, just wonder where the BML support was coming from with morelli.
I didn’t know if there was any underlining reason for it.
Thats all.
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cool cool, just making sure the masses know we have nothing to do with BML. Like Janet Jackson and Pepsi, no wardrobe malfunctions here. LOL
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not that it matters either way
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Critic, let me expound a bit on where my position comes from. You call it support, but let’s call it a position because like I said, I’d rather walk the middle of the road here.
Before actually doing loans myself and buying leads, and before coming over to the 360, I spent my days selling mortgage leads at one of the companies mentioned above. My book of business was, at the time, a Who’s Who? of the mortgage industry. Actually Bill depending on when you left Quicken (I don’t know), we may have spoken with one another. Selling leads exposed me to those unscrupulous practices that I mentioned above. Not saying we were doing it, I’m just saying. There are lots of things that happen to leads that buyers are unaware of, and lead gen companies have ways to monetize their data. I’ve known the guys at BML for a while now and have worked with them in the past, and have never experienced any issues with the leads. Maybe this practice is new? I am sure someone else can weigh in and tell me. Maybe the quality has gone down, but I’d rather hear it from someone who is currently buying the leads than speculate.
My point is, and I hope that it is clearly understood…that a lead will be monetized, and will be monetized, and will be monetized over and over again. Period. Sure, there are probably companies out there who say “This lead will be sold 3 times, and then we will dispose of it.” I’m sure there are. But that doesn’t mean that a lead buyer isn’t going to resell that lead to a credit repair company, and to a tax relief company, etc…etc…
So after all of this is said and done, and the consumers information has reached the phones of 20 people…if the lead is converting, it’s converting. Period. That is all. Can a system like this degrade the quality of the lead? Of course, it might. But I would assume that Bill would agree with me that speed-to-contact in this case is key, as with any other lead, organic or not. And if the leads convert, well then the numbers speak for themselves. I’d like to see numbers before I throw BML under the bus, rather than speculative evidence…not to say that anything Silence wrote is wrong, of course.
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Bill,
You are “spot” on.
Quinstreet
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LeadCritic Crew –
Thanks for helping us get the word out there about a few of the new things we’re doing over here at BigMortgageLeads.
I think that we all agree that that the more information we can give to a lead buyer on a consumer’s financial situation, the better we can tailor our product and the better our product will perform for a lender. Our new forms are one way that we’ve found to get our clients more detailed information.
As you know, when a broker calls a borrower, one of the first questions they’ll ask is, “What is your current debt situation?” With the new fields we’ve added to our forms, we can provide this information to the broker beforehand so that they will have a better picture of the lead’s situation before contacting the borrower. Quite simply, they can have a good idea of the debt / income ratio before calling the lead and therefore can offer a consultative, insightful approach to the borrower from the get-go.
In regards to additional products, it’s no secret that lead generation companies trying to find ways to monetize traffic. BigMortgageLeads is no different. However, BigMortgageLeads gives the customer the opportunity to opt-in to other related offers that they might be interested in, which are clearly stated on our websites. Most sub-prime customers (and especially those that are behind on their mortgage payments) no longer have options when it comes to mortgage lending. We have found a way to continue to service these customers by providing them to seek alternate solutions through channels such as Homesedo.com. These customers are not being matched with lenders as there are no longer programs for this audience. In this case, if they opt in to speak with other providers, we are giving them the chance to have a conversation with someone who may offer them a solution.
We are also excited to launch our new confirmation page monetization tool, Revlifter. Revlifter is a clean way to offer relevant offers to customers after they have submitted an inquiry. A consumer can select product and services they are interested in, or to bypass the program and continue on their way. It is a great way to monetize your traffic and we encourage publisher to see a live demo and to sign up at: http://www.Revlifter.com.
We’d welcome any potential buyers to give us a call at 800-873-3066 to discuss building out a lead program to suit your needs. Please mention the LeadCritic to receive a 10% discount on your first 100 leads.
Keep up the good work.
Regards,
The BigMortgageLeads Team
http://www.bigmortgageleads.com
[Reply]
[...] interesting blog post popped up on the Lead Critic today. It concerns the monetization of leads by lead providers. [...]
Two things crop up in to me in this discussion. I think the idea of monetizing leads is understandable. Its what this industry does. That is completely accepted to a point– 3 to 5 sales as an average. We get that. Creating new ways to monetize is one of the critical steps for this industry to grow. However, I think there are two questions unanswered so far–
Where is the proof by the advertised lead providers that they are selling these co-reg leads as debt relief, credit repair, or any other “types” of leads other than mortgage? Because if that is the case, then you have 3-4 proficient marketing companies that are supposedly marketing debt relief, credit repair,etc. by telling the consumers, and I quote from the above page, “compare rate quotes” “$430,000 mortgage for $1299/month”,etc. If I am a consumer “Refinance $200,000 loan for $660/month” does NOTHING to tell me how to repair my credit, or give me debt relief. So, if this is truly the story, then at BEST, it is FALSE advertising. At second best, it is SLOPPY marketing. We have already discussed what this is at its worst, so I will leave that alone.
To your point Morelli- speed to lead is critical, and I believe this too. If you ask me, these lead providers just put themselves in a tough spot with their clients for an overlooked reason. If I am a lender and buying leads from all of these sources, I am now 5th in line to this lead. If, as you say, Morelli, it all comes down to speed and whether I as a broker can convert the lead (essentially putting the owness back on the lead buyer to compete amongst themselves) then I should be compensated for unfair starting points. Just like in a race, if I am in the outside lane, I should start farther up. If the same lead is being sold by BML that I am buying from LMB–chances are VERY good LMB or Low got that lead significantly later than BML customers. I should NOT be paying full price for leads that someone else is getting a head start on and I have no internal control over. Unfortunately, how will I know? Chances are, I will just stop buying Internet leads for the same reason we ALL hear every day– “Internet leads suck–they are oversold.”
[Reply]
[...] post by LEADCRITIC | Mortgage Leads News and Opinions Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]
Keith, good post.
I think something that this thread thus far has not considered is that BML may not be selling the leads to every kind of provider the lead supposedly captures information for, and the OP infers. In their response, they clearly state:
“Most sub-prime customers (and especially those that are behind on their mortgage payments) no longer have options when it comes to mortgage lending. We have found a way to continue to service these customers by providing them to seek alternate solutions through channels such as Homesedo.com. These customers are not being matched with lenders as there are no longer programs for this audience. In this case, if they opt in to speak with other providers, we are giving them the chance to have a conversation with someone who may offer them a solution.”
So if this whole blog post and thread is predicated on the assumption that BML is generating a mortgage lead and trying to pull extra information to then resell to numerous other providers, including mortgage companies, thus degradating the quality of the lead…and this is not the case, then I think apologies are owed. After reading their response, at least that is the way I understand it. Again, perhaps I am wrong, but I hope that they will come back on and clear it up.
If that IS in fact the case, can we make an argument that the marketing is going to confuse the consumer? Hell yes, they’re expecting a mortgage. However, we’ve just been through this and have seen what this kind of mindset has created. I am in credit card debt, I have tax debt, blah blah blah I will just refinance my house and use my equity to pay it off. Been there, done that, look around today and see the results. As we’re all painfully aware of now, most consumers who end up filling out a lead form are unaware of what they really need, or qualify for to begin with. I don’t know about you guys but if I were still buying leads and closing loans, I would not even want to deal with someone who has mortgage lates, etc. Not this day in age.
I will wait for BML to clarify and out of fairness, I think we all should before we throw any more stones.
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Morelli and Burwell,
I think you are both right too, but lets say they do not sell the lead to a mortgage company, a stundent loan compnay, a tax releif, etc…ok. What about the 33 co-reg options and the 8 other offers coming mostly from other lead providers. Why would you even give the lead a chance to fill out 8 more mortgage inquiries??
I understand cross marketing and re-marketing very well and can understand offers for credit repair, but for other products that are the exact same as yours doesn’t make sense to me.
in my opinion, even if they are not selling the leads to the other verticals there is still going to be some issues.
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LeadCritic, your last post, I can completely understand and you’re right. It does seem a bit odd. I’m not so worried about the co-reg path, but the other lead providers certainly does raise a red flag.
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I agree with you about the co reg. It is not really a issue for me either
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It just occurred to me why this type of co-registration scenario (particularly with multiple mortgage lead providers capturing and selling the same lead to the same clients) doesn’t necessarily cause a huge outrage on the part of the consumer, the lenders, or the other lead providers…
There is still a significant percentage of the lead buying market that doesn’t call their leads. Primarily those without lead management (obvious self-serving comment, but true) because they are getting lost, spam-blocked, or poorly prioritized in an already overwhelmed LO email inbox (we’ll assume no one is foolish enough to be lazy in this market).
So, although this lead is probably being sold 15-20 times and in many cases potentially multiple times to the same lender, by different lead providers–no one is the wiser.
My logic follows:
1. The consumer only gets 3-5 calls–they’re happy.
2. The lender doesn’t know they got it multiple times, but thank heavens one of the 3 LOs in their shop that got it decided to give it a call and got an app for their effort–they’re happy.
3. The other lead providers got a lead they sell with no complaints (see 1 and 2)–they’re happy
No problems here! Maybe Big Mortgage Leads IS doing the market a service–everyone seems to be happy.
I’m not going to put it in any best practices list, but if everyone is happy then so be it I suppose.
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BML is likely desperate and if they don’t do this, they’re going to follow theloanpage and fastfind into oblivion.
Their quality will likely suck, they likely will lose clients.
If they don’t, and this doesn’t hurt BML’s quality, then the whole lead provider industry will and probably should follow BML’s leadership.
But I highly doubt that’s the case. The shakeout continues.
Beware the small lead providers and watch their quality like a hawk in this environment.
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Agreed.
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FYI, my agreed comment was to Bill’s last post.
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[...] Lead providers, lenders, lead buyers, lead sellers, affiliates, consumers–weigh on "Penalty for Unnecessary Roughness" at [...]
This string is getting a little ridiculous. I have never felt the need to post here, but I am a regular reader of this site.
This string is reminiscent of a group of adolescents who found someone to pick on and all jumped on the train. When a group of people is “picking” on one person or company that person ALWAYS loses the battle. I thought this board was supposed to be a place for positive information and for all of us to learn something from each other? That is not what’s happening here.
No I do not work with or have anything to do with BML…….
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leadgen,
I simply think that is a worthwhile debate, thats all. This discussion should be focused on the topic, not the company.
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I agree that this discussion is really about the general practices of the industry, not BML. The tone of the original post was a bit harsher–but you need some attitude to draw in the eyeballs.
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Right on! Good lead buyers track and understand well the marketing messages, monitization techniques and and traffic sources of their vendors!
Initially, when agreeing to test a new provider, the due diligence should involve just this: an examination of the methods used the generate leads, and the customer expectations and experience that result from it. As a buyer, I filled out countless “bogus” lead forms using my real name and phone #, to experience for myself, exactly what my consumers would be going through. From there, I was able to
1. Make a decision about whether or not to test a new vendor
2. Setup a customized plan of attack for the lead source, or put it into an existing execution path (ie. Do I send it immediately to a LO for a manual call, or do I send it to a dialer to get warm transferred, or do I send it to a LO assistant to manual dial and screen first, what opening scripting, if any, do I use…etc).
This is the beauty and necessity of a good LMS, it facilitates doing this, if you use it!
Who knows what BML is doing with their leads. It is not how I’d design a lead generation website for the best consumer experience, but hey, don’t judge a book by its cover. Alternatively, the most innocous looking lead gen site, could be rotten under the hood. What a good lead buyer must do is:
-Ghost shop them to death.
-Get a rough check their volume and traffic sources on compete.com (hey! Netmoneywizard.com has no volume ;-P
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/netmoneywizard.com/?metric=uv)
If you don’t like what you see, or hear, move on. The points around ancillary products, and ultimate conversion rates are taken and given, but premature I think.
http://siteanalytics.compete.com/netmoneywizard.com/?metric=
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Despite Leadgen101′s comments I think this is a substantive discussion. But, he and Lead Critic are correct. This is not about BML. It is about a fairly routine practice I am beginning to understand.
So, here is some more information that may be useful in the spirit of fairness. I am still not certain it is a great practice, but there is probably some redeeming value in this explanation.
I received this information from a few lead providers that contacted me (one of which is in that list) to explain the practice in a lot more detail.
Here it goes:
1. Most likely Silence, based on the info provided in the inquiry form, was NOT matched to any of the host (BML in this example) lead generator’s lenders
2. Therefore, the borrower would not normally be distributed to any lenders and consequently would not have been helped
3. Consequently, a lead provider using this technique might use a service like SureHits listings (a vertical search network for financial services) to provide alternatives to help the borrower
4. This gives the borrower additional venues for hard problems in a market with ever tightening credit standards
If this is how the practice is executed then the borrow is NOT likely to be distributed by the original provider and will NOT likely get the blender effect.
This of course assumes that these services (like SureHits) and the lead providers that use the services do a good job of policing their publisher networks.
Thanks to those lead providers who took the time to reach out and educate me. Hopefully, this continues to round out the discussion.
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Great – what is best about this is that there is a full discussion of a lead gen issue. love to see it… I do agree that we should all be civil on any post. also, lets use our names – not made up names like they have on the ml implode forum..
Owen
[Reply]
[...] do and certainly is worth asking the question. The positive and negatives of co-registration has been debated and there are certainly a right way and a wrong way for publishers and advertisers to us this [...]
[...] do and certainly is worth asking the question. The positive and negatives of co-registration has been debated and there are certainly a right way and a wrong way for publishers and advertisers to us this [...]